Richard Elliots Berlingo

[ChrisB]

I have been in discusion with Richard via E-mail about his berlingo and with his consent below is the conversation we have been having.

From: Richard Elliott
To: 'BVS Forum'
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 10:00 AM
Subject: RE: Berlingo E


Ha! A timely enquiry!! Just crawled out from underneath said Berlingo ('Sparky'). In the middle of removing the middle battery pack to see what's up with it. Car goes BUT yellow low battery warning light comes on at any time if you put a heavy load on it (ie 1 in 4 hill) and then you've got about two miles before you start walking. Other than that it sails along happily and silently. I tried a maintenance charge after buying it as nobody new the state of the batteries. The middle set, the water went in but came out the bottom and not the overflow. Oh Dear!! I have obtained an old set from the local Citroen agency (don't think I'm ever going to afford a new set!!!!!) I have three good cells out of a six pack.

So, on with the removal. Bit of a challenge but I'm getting there. Had hoped I could get the pack past the brake hoses but no chance. So getting local garage man friend to look at that little challenge. Its seems a darn stupid design - if the brake hoses were another few inches longer they would not go diagonally across the corners of the battery pack.

Live in hope then that I can sort it out and enjoy some silent, pollution free motoring. I'm hoping to install some system to charge it via wind (plenty around my area) or some PV cells.

If you have any advice on removal of the battery pack I'd be grateful. (I guess your article will help when I find it.) At first sight the BVS site looks complex and I can't see it.Also reassembly - I can see challenges in making sure the coolant system is working and not full of air locks. It looks like the old pack I got from Yeomans in Exeter had suffered a coolant failure as it seems to have partially blown up.

Richard Elliott

My reply

From: BVS Forum
Sent: 15 April 2007 12:52
To: Richard Elliott
Subject: Re: Berlingo E


Hi Richard

The Forum isnt that complicated , there are a load of pesky adverts that get in the way which are a little anouying but other than that it shouldnt be too tricky.

I see you have joined up so if you go down to the forum about Berlingos/psa vehicles you should be able to see my huge post about the battery change I've just done.

Try making a post in the test area of the forum and when you've got use to doing that you'll soon get the hang of things I'm sure.

I would say you've got the same problem as mine i.e pre 2000 batteries !!!!

The center pack sounds like its got a burnt out battery ( be careful with the stuff that runs out of the crate drain ( not battery drain ) as it will contain electrolyte and while I havent had any nasty side effects from getting it on me I try and avoid it at all costs )

Have you checked the voltages on each of the packs ?? you should be able to tell which packs have duff batteries in them and roughly how many are duff per pack. I found nearly half of the 27 batteries where duff in my packs !!!!!!

I'm confused by you saying you cant get the center pack out past the brake hoses , do you mean the handbrake cables ?? they are the only bit of the brakes that need to be disconnected and its easily done from inside the car and then pull the cables out and clear as in my documentation.

I've looked at trying to charge the van off PV's and wind here , yep we get loads of it too being right on the southcoast but the van needs so much juice that it would cost a small fortune in PV panels or a massive wind turbine !!!! as it needs something like 20kwh to charge it up !!! and say you bought a 1kw wind turbine it would need to run at max output for some 20hrs to recharge the van !!!!!! needing a constant wind of around 30mph all the time , just wouldnt happen I dont think.

If I can help any more give me a shout of make a post on the forum

ChrisB

Richards reply

From: RichardElliott
To: 'BVS Forum'
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 2:33 PM
Subject: RE: Berlingo E


I'll have to plug the car in to the Son's latest Hydro generator. Its an Archimedes screw machine turning out 60kw. I must admit I find it rather surprising the 13amp socket recharges the car at all. But, of course, it does and without blowing the house fuses!.

Yes, found your stuff on the battery change in the end. And, yes, its 'only' the handbrake cable. Great! I'll remember to chock the car jolly well before I undo it.

Have achieved a top speed of 55mph with 'Sparky' before deciding to take it out of service (that was without particularly trying). The batteries are all dated 30.9.2003 so hope there aren't too many duff ones in the set. The middle pack has a very deliberate cut in it that looks as if someone used an angle grinder to make it. That's where the top up water came out when I did the maintenance charge - not the overflow!

Question! How can I check the voltages on each pack whilst in site? Is it a case of poking the volt meter onto each end of the pack or is there somewhere under the bonnet that provides an easier solution. Evan's ev-lite I bought showed a top voltage of 187 after charging and it was running around 175 when I last took it out on a short trip.

Richard Elliott

My reply

From: BVS Forum
Sent: 15 April 2007 20:18
To: RichardElliott
Subject: Re: Berlingo E


Thats cheating having a hydro genny , but very nice thing to have.

The van does pull the max from a 13A plug and does so for pretty much the full duration of the charge , top tip always use a dam good extension lead if you have to use one at all, you'll notice things start to get pretty warm !!!

All though the blingo will do 60mph you want to avoid that, infact anything above about 40mph really as you'll be pulling a lot of power off the pack and exceeding the batteries C1 rating and this will only reduce their life span.

Right so your saying someones attacked the pack with an angle grinder ?? or is it the fact the packs taken a hit from something ?? any chance you could take some pics ??

Sounds like the packs taken a hit rather than someone angle grinding it .................why would they want to ?? unless some idiot thought it was an easy way of getting the batts out ?? and in doing so hit a battery ??

Right battery checking is done by pulling the fuses and dabbing a volt meter into the terminals , each pack has one fuse and one link, the link is the one with the white mark on it also its a bit lighter. make sure you put the two back into the correct places the white link carrier has a white holder so its not too tricky.
Easy on to start with is the pack under the bonnet, you'll see the fuse and link just behind the 12v aux battery , pull them both out and then test on the ends oppersite to where the cables go into the carriers if you go on the cable terminations you wont be reading that pack, this is a 24v pack you should have a good 24v normally about 27volts + depending on state of charge and battery condition , anything lower than 24v means a battery has gone, but to be honest I suspect all your probs are in the center pack.
Then theres the lower front pack thats a 36volt one, the fuse and link are at the rear on the drivers side, again anything under 36v will mean a battery/s gone, then theres a similar pack at the rear, fuse and link at the rear drivers side, then the center , this is a tricky one as the fuse and link are either side, so you might need to push a bit of wire into the fuse holder to extend your meters test probe, this pack should be above 66volts.

Now the center pack is watered in two sections if you can remember which one failed to water correctly we can pretty much work out which batteries out of the 11 have got a problem.

It does sound like you've lost either one or two batteries in the center pack as mine will top out at just over 200v+ on charge. When a battery gets holed and the cell starts to dry out they go high resisitance and hence you loose volts until it wont actually drive due to the massive resisitance. With your packs being dated 2003 then you should fine and not have the dreaded pre 2000 disease which is what mine where suffering from.

I would love to see a picy of the damage to the pack.

Do you mind if I copy and paste all these mails on to the forum as it may help others in the future and there is so little info out on the web for Blingos, also if we can chat via the forum then others can see how we progress and might be able to offer their help as well, which is the whole idea of the forum .

ChrisB

Richards reply

From: RichardElliott
To: 'BVS Forum'
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 12:24 PM
Subject: RE: Berlingo E


Thanks a lot for the info. Please do put anything on the forum - its sorted my queries just like that. Went home had tea, popped in the garage and had hand brake cables off inside five minutes. Centre pack now 6 inches off the garage floor. I am making a nice trolley for it with a very stout plank of wood (a church pew end!) and castors so I can zip it out easily on my own. It will be interesting to find out what's up with the set. Its the overflow on the nearside that doesn't function and the water that went in the filler for that came out through the slot that looks like an angle grinder got at it. It might have been a sharp piece of metal someone drove over I suppose but it looks horribly like it was angle ground! As you say that seems unlikely. Did the metal go through a battery though - that could account for a lot. It would be good to have a specific reason like that for the general problem rather than a problem caused by water shortage. Will report soon as I expect to get it apart tonight.
Richard

My reply

No probs, sounds like you have the center pack out now and your undercontrol. I really cant undertand why someone would want to anglegrind the crate ?? did you manage to get any pics ( even if they are just camera phone ones ) you could e-mail to me or put on the forum as I would love to know what it actually looks like !!!

Be carefull when removing and replacing the battery links as you can start to twist the terminals on the top of the batteries when doing or undoing them which I would think isnt very good for them, I find a short jerk normally seems to undo them OK and then when doing them up watch for terminal movement and dont over tighen to much but make sure its still tight though ........if that makes sence.

I've put all our e-mails on the forum now for everyone to follow, see if you can put a reply on it now.

ChrisB

Richard hasnt managed to reply to the forum yet but I'm hoping he will be able to soon.

ChrisB

[Richard Elliott]

Continuing the sage of 'Sparky' and his dodgy centre pack. Its now out on the floor and all taken apart. This vehicle was originally owned by a council in the Midlands and it looks very much as if they have some really high class bodgers on the books! The pack of 11 has two dodgy specimens within its ranks. Pictures attached. One is a total disaster zone - it appears to have been encased in some sort of fibreglass in an attempt to keep it together. Its got a hole in the top watering ramp and so the water goes straight out at that point and, yes, out through the drain hole cur with an angle grinder in the base. the second dodgy specimen is the next one in the circuit with fibre glass patched in the top watering ramp and a fracture that continues around the base of the watering ramp. And, horror of horrors, the really doodgy battery has been isolated from the coolant circuit, but the watering circuit remains connected as does the electrical circuit. Pictures attached.

I took a voltage reading of all the batteries and, individually, they all read 7 volts (including the least dodgy one) except the dodgy one which showed 4.52. The I took a reading across the whole 11 and it was 27.98. Now, I'm not an electrical expert but do I take it the disaster battery is providing some sort of resistance in the circuit that causes this?

Anyway, I've got two decent batteries to replace the errant specimens so live in hope for a satisfactory outcome.

Richard Elliott











[/img]

[ChrisB]

OMG Richard those pictures are stunning

What on earth did they think they where doing !!!!! and why ???

Thats got to be a first ...........lets case a battery in glass fibre !!!!!! well I suppose it should work ?? one has to ask why though ??? totally bizzare .


mmmmmm you say your getting 7 volts over all the batts execpt the dodgy one , yet accros the pack your getting only 27.98 ???? nope somethings wrong there , I would expect to see 74volts or there abouts I wouldnt expect that battery to have gone that high in the resistance stakes, volt meters are really high resistance themselves so they dont load the circuit so I would expect to see +70volts , are you sure your measuring over the WHOLE of the pack ?? I would say your only looking at about 4 batteries with that reading ???

Looks like your crates have been replaced at somestage if you say they are 2003 batts yet by the looks of it the van is a 97/98, are dates that are stamped on the watering ramps the same ???

Lets hope that they have only been in this pack and havent been fiddling else where !!!!!!

ChrisB

[Richard Elliott]

Yes, pretty stunning attempt at a bodge. The less disastrous looking battery I have poked all the fibre glass off and its 'only' got a cracked watering ramp. It looks as if it was broken from above rather than exploded. As mentioned in the last posting the electrolyte levels are as they should be and its reading 7 volts. Any reason why I shouldn't weld it up with a small electric soldering iron? I tried it and made a good job of it.......

Thought I would heed the suggestion about putting any slightly dubious cells in the back pack as ChrisB says thats an easy one to take off.... 20 minutes he says!!! AAAAGH!! First off the TorX bolts needed a T50 size extractor rather than the T55 one I had bought for the middle pack - quick visit to local garage friend. That was followed by 2 and half hours of blood sweat and tears to get the four bolts out. Being longer than needed the top ends were rusty. I'm still aching from the effort!

And yes, further to ChrisB's observations the car was registered in 1999 but the batteries were all changed in September 2003.

Richard Elliott

[ChrisB]

What on earth where they doing with the poor thing !!!!!

Have you though about going back to the council who owned it and asking the garage what they where up to, if only to get some history ??? and what went wrong in the first place ???

Sorry about the rear pack torxs being different sized I've got a full range of torx so just grabbed the next size
Ah they where rusted in a bit , mine where a tadge, but they did come out with a long bar fitted to the end of my socket wrench

Top tip here, I'm sure you will, but clean up all those bolts and put some castrol CL grease or similar on them when you put them back, then its a lot easier to get them off again

As for welding up the tops I dont see why not , its not like they have to carry that much preasure, give it a go..............looks like you have , pics please , my moto is a picture is a 1000 words

Make sure the water jacket isnt cracked, it would be worth preasure testing them with a very small amount of preasure to be sure , but I recon it sounds like its going to be OK

So its only looking like theres one battery thats a total gonner then ?? Have we had any more thoughts on that weird voltage reading you where getting across the whole of the center pack ??

Wise move putting all the suspect cells in the rear pack.

ChrisB

[Richard Elliott]

Will send a picture of my weld repairs! First I welded the crack directly with the soldering iron, then I cut slivers of the plastic from pieces blown out of the dead cells and welded them along the length of the crack to give it added strength as I don't expect the weld penetration will have been deep enough by just doing the crack alone.

Re the water jacket - is at all round or just two sides? Yes, I'm planning to top up the coolant before putting them back in the box. Bit concerned about air locks - it seems to me a failure of the coolant system causes a lot of the battery problems. It wasn't until last night I noticed that their are two types of the cells - the plus and minus terminals alternating from side to side. Probably have to make of a special link for my good battery as the law of sod means, whichever way I juggle them I end up with one that is the wrong way. Still plenty of bits of the steel from the old dead pack I got from the local service centre.

Some of the TorX bolts were not too good after I had fought them out so I've arranged to get some from the local agent in Exeter. And, Oh Joy!, they have another set of dead ones awaiting disposal, so I'm picking them up tomorrow. Hope to find the odd one still usable. Its Exeter City Council who have a small fleet of E500's they use in the local cemetery!!

Richard Elliott

[ChrisB]

Will send a picture of my weld repairs! First I welded the crack directly with the soldering iron, then I cut slivers of the plastic from pieces blown out of the dead cells and welded them along the length of the crack to give it added strength as I don't expect the weld penetration will have been deep enough by just doing the crack alone.

Sounds like you've done a nice job, look forward to the pics.

Re the water jacket - is at all round or just two sides? Yes, I'm planning to top up the coolant before putting them back in the box. Bit concerned about air locks - it seems to me a failure of the coolant system causes a lot of the battery problems.

The water jacket is only down the two long sides and not on the ends as all, the water appears to zigzag its way from one end to another.
Airlocks dont seem to be an issue ......well I dont think so ..........I was concerned when I did mine the first time (that was when I hooked only the front pack out due to an expoded battery) but didnt seem to have a problem, even this time when I have had the whole coolent system in bits it doesnt seem to have caused an issue but as you say cooling is very important.
As long as you dont kink any hoses then you shouldnt get a problem.

It wasn't until last night I noticed that their are two types of the cells - the plus and minus terminals alternating from side to side. Probably have to make of a special link for my good battery as the law of sod means, whichever way I juggle them I end up with one that is the wrong way. Still plenty of bits of the steel from the old dead pack I got from the local service centre.

Ah yes there are the two types in fact I think there might be four types with different arrangements of + & - terms and filling connections.
You should be able to fit the correct ones into the center pack and I would advise that. I'd try and do my utmost in getting the the correct batterys in the right place as it may well effect the cooling/filling etc.

Some of the TorX bolts were not too good after I had fought them out so I've arranged to get some from the local agent in Exeter. Its Exeter City Council who have a small fleet of E500's they use in the local cemetery!!

Richard Elliott

Might pay you to fit standard bolts to be honest, at least you can get a good hex socket on it , dont forget to grease them well.
Wow so Exeter are still using lecy blingos then !!!???

ChrisB

[Richard Elliott]

Progress of a sort! Everything back together yesterday and ready for lift off. I turn on the ignition and everything bursts into life. BUT accompanied by the sound of running water - out of the drain hole of the big battery!! Drat, drat and double drat!! (Or words to that effect) OK, I take it all apart and its blown three coolant tubes off their battery inlets/outlets. I KNOW they were all in place before I put it back together - I checked against the carefully made drawing plus photos of when I took it apart. I refilled the coolant radiator before 'switch on' but obviously it needed more as I'd got a lot left from what had drained out. So, obviously air in the system and I expected the pump to circulate it - which it did, far too effectively. I don't have any kinks in the system that I can see. Any ideas or experience of this kind of thing. I'm just about to put it all back together. Good news if you can call it that is that the middle pack took me two days to get off first time but only an hour and a half last night!!

[ChrisB]

What on earths going on ????

Its blown pipes off ?? but theres no real presure as such on the system

I'd be tempted to carry out a bit of a test with a hose pipe on one end and see if you get a good flow through the pack. I cant believe it was able to blow the hoses off as normally they are quite tight ??

If the hose pipe test works i.e you get flow from one end to the other I would then check each of the runs by pinching up all but one of the pipes on the input manifold and check you get flow again, do this for each of the runs.

Of course I wouldnt whack the hose presure up to much though.

If it still wants to blow off the pipes then what about cable tieing the pipes on to the batts ??
But to be honest it really surprises me, one thing that does concern me though is if theres a breach inside one of the batts between the coolent and the battery cell and once the pumps started it forced coolent into a battery cell which caused a small thermal incident and the resulting poof blew some of the hoses off ???

Now the above could be reality as you said there was damage to the tops of some of the batts, where you able to replace all the dodgy batts with ones from the rear pack ??

ChrisB

[Richard Elliott]

Have done as suggested - checked the flow through each run on the top of the batteries. All well. The three pipes that had come off are now fixed in place with cable ties. They were on the outer corners of the pack. Don't know if that was significant - or did I just leave them off!! Self inflicted torture if I did! Pack back under car and topped up with coolant, system working with no leaks! Now to tidy up and look at a gentle charge. All the batteries in the middle pack are fine - the two slightly dicky specimens are in the rear pack.
Another minor mod I plan is to wire a switch in to the reversing warning alarm - is the presence of this alarm a council mod or is there one on all electric Berlingo's? Its useful in car parks rather than knock over the good townsfolk of Ashburton when the van silently moves off, but a trial at home where only the cat has to look out for itself and I would prefer not to wake up the whole neighbourhood!